Rap point 2
Cover reproduced with kind permission of Lothian Books.
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Rap point 2: Term 1, Week 4, beginning 16 February
Remember to REGISTER for the Jeannie Baker video conference by 27 February! View student worksheets and teacher’s guide.
Consider the quotation below:
We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us. R. D. Laing (1967) The politics of experience. Penguin, UK, p.83.
Comment on this quotation in relation to the way that belonging is represented in your chosen text. Use the following questions as a guide.
- Does your text have in-groups and out-groups?
- Name the various groups or perspectives in your text
- In your chosen text, which forms, features and structures convey ideas about who belongs to the in-group and who is in the out-group? In other words, how are these ideas represented in your text?
- What do you believe that Laing means in this quotation?
- How is this division represented in your text?
Use the Planning and programming activities, the Social identity theory sheet and Rap sheet 4 to help you respond to Rap point 2.
Go to Comment or Leave a reply at the bottom of this page to post your response. You will need to log in, post a response and wait for moderation.
February 13th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Greetings everyone
We know that the in-group and the out-group are very important to the concept of Belonging because the brutal fact is that people often know they belong [to Us] when they look and see who is locked out of belonging [Them - sometimes known as the Other]. This operates in friendship groups – so that sometimes people are excluded for a while by the power broker in the group, and then allowed back in again. Sometimes belonging comes with a high cost – people wear the badges of belonging [clothes, music tastes, film tastes] that their friends wear – but inside they feel a bit different. So, even people who ‘belong’ find that this belonging can come with some stress for them.
When we look at Them – the outsiders – we can see that the human urge to bully and exclude seems to be as strong as the psychological urge to belong to a place and a tribe. Some workplaces and schools regard bullying as a sport – using a series of daily “jokes” so someone is put on the ouside, looking in. Invasion and occupation of countries happen because WE feel it’s alright to take land away from THEM.
On a broad scale, circumstances can work to exclude aome people from power, safety and belonging – those who are homeless, mentally ill, unemployed, in a racial, political or religious minority, those who are poor, without a country or without family can feel like THEM to those who have security. Having said that, many people in difficult circumstances are strong, surrounded by friends, family and support and DO experience belonging – so generalisations can never capture the full picture of what it means to belong.
In fact, Shaun Tan’s book The lost thing provides one wonderful way to begin unpacking the COMPLEXITY of the concept of BELONGING - is it really such a great thing to “belong” in the society he depicts? What does that mean for our society?
We want to hear from you…
1. What are some of the badges of belonging in the group you belong to? Music tastes, etc…
2. What are some ways that you see people being excluded from groups?
3. On a big scale, which group in society that is *marginalised do you feel very concerned about?
Cheers
Lizzie
*pushed to the margins
February 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Trying to unscramble the quotation given in this question is tricky.
A group we refer to as US is the subject, while the group we refer to as THEM is the object. In another sense we (US), the subject or the ‘in group’ are always someone else’s THEM, their object or ‘out group’.
The important point made by this quotation, is that there is no definite ‘in group’ or ‘out group’, it just depends on a person’s point of view.
We are both subject and object at the same time. When we see others as different, it is important to remember that they too see us as different.
In Shaun Tan’s The Arrival, both the man and the strange creature seem to accept each other’s differences and so are able to relate to one another without focussing on an Us/Them split. It is the Us/Them split that often leads to misunderstanding, prejudice, and conflict.
In Jeannie’s Baker’s Window, the natural environment is the object. The subject – humans, need to control it, get rid of it, or marginalise it.
With these thoughts in mind, see what ideas about notions of belonging or not belonging you can find in any of the books set for the rap.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Hi there, it’s Enrique. Why is there always an out-group? Why does society neglect ‘others’? There is always an out-group because everyone has differing views and interests. Sometimes people are pushed into an out-group because how they appear might not attract others, sometimes it’s a lack of intelligence.
I see that people are excluded through bullying, isolation, the silent treatment, death stares, gossiping and lack of communication with them. For me, the quote “We are Them to Them as They are Them to Us.” means that we differentiate ourselves from people in other groups because on the surface we do not have the same respect or communication with ‘them’. So ultimately we refer to other people as Them because we know that we are ‘Them’ to them as well.
Throughout the book Window, we see different points of view of Belonging. A major use of visual technique is the outline of the frames used to portray a sense of a significant and treasured moment, much like capturing a moment through a camera. The objects around the window are also used to describe the feeling of the boy and as the book follows, the objects become less bashful and move into more cherished things.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Hi, it’s Flicka here. In society, I believe there is always an out-group because everyone is different in culture, values, religion, sex and personality-wise. This is also because everyone has their own definition of Belonging.
There are many ways in which groups or people are excluded. Sometimes people are excluded because they are simply ignored, others are physically, emotionally or mentally put down. For example, physically or mentally challenged people are sometimes subtly or even overtly discriminated against and excluded from particular things.
“We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us” – in other words this quote says “to us another group is known as ‘them’ but to that group we are known as ‘them’. ” This simply means that when a group looks at another group that they don’t associate with, and something happens to that group, it won’t be deeply looked into. On the other hand, if the group is us and something happens to ‘us’, then more empathy and feelings are explored.
I’ve chosen the picture book, Belonging by Jeannie Baker – an image of Belonging in this book is where the girl and her next door neighbour are getting married. They are encircled by a crowd of people rejoicing in the happiness and sharing the “belonging” feeling. An image that shows alienation in this book is the girl in her cubby house. Here the girl is shown with no other people. The cubby house makes a sense of security for the girl excluding her from everyone else. Even though this page shows alienation it is a contented form. The girl still seems to be happily playing by herself with her toys in her own little house or “world”.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Good day Flicka – I think it’s fantastic to draw a distinction between being alone [when this can sometimes be enjoyable and even cosy] and being lonely. Alienation is definitely a negative emotion – I think you are getting at the fact that she seems to be enjoying her solitude and her cubby house…
February 18th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Hi – it’s Rebecca. No matter where you go, there is always an “out group” although they may not seem to be like that to themselves – but they are somehow for some reason different and are not accepted by all [which could not be possible anyway]. There are many ways that people can be excluded – name calling, making the person or people feel lonely or isolated or even just being bullied which can really make a person’s self esteem low and have them change into a different person.
In “Belonging”, some images of Belonging are the looks of happiness and contentment on the little girl’s face and the changes they have made to the window and the back yard which suits to their liking. An image of alienation is where it’s the girl’s 10th birthday and she is stuck at the window watching everyone enjoying themselves, which she can’t join in as she isn’t feeling well. She looks sad and alone.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Zeinab here – There is always an out-group because many people stereotype against a particular group or individual. Therefore they are excluded and left out. I see this happening through harassment, bullying and deliberately excluding others from a group.
I’ve chosen the book “Window” which is written by Jeannie Baker. Some images of Belonging are when the boy is walking to school with his friend and also when he is standing with his girlfriend. Some images of alienation are when he is building a cubby house alone and playing by himself in the yard.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Hi everyone, it’s Rhonda. Some people don’t fit into a stereotype and people who do fit in see that as a wrong thing. Some people like doing things that others don’t ‘approve’ of. As well, people are excluded through bullying or just excluding people from things such as team work eg sport, school groups.
“We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us.” Each group looks at another and to us, it’s ‘them’. However, it is the same when ‘they’ look at us. When we give ‘them’ a stereotype they also give one to us.
I’ve chosen “Window” – some images of Belonging are when he is within his footy team, or walking to school with a friend. Some scenes of Alienation are when he is creating a fort by himself, in his room with a sling shot, and when he is all grown up with his own baby staring out a window, just like his mother did when he was a baby.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
I think Rhonda makes a good point when she notes that some people actually OPT OUT of belonging to a main group – either through resisting STEREOTYPES or through resisting APPROVAL and being ‘normal’.
Remember, all you people from big families out there, that sometimes being alone is not being alienated – sometimes people get a sense of belonging from NATURE or from having some time alone…
February 18th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Aaiasha here – Well, basically the people that don’t have the qualities that others accept are typically the ones excluded. People that are excluded usually keep to themselves because they may feel threatened, are bullied or just basically ignored altogether.
We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us. This quote means that people are separated into groups. Everyone sees other people that aren’t like them or belonging with them as being ‘THEM’ or ‘THE OTHER PEOPLE’.
Throughout Window we see a young boy grow up and enter the adult world. As he grows, we see the world changing and his Belonging with nature disappears. The nice, green scenery becomes corrupted by city life and eventually when the young man gets married and has a baby he moves to a place where once again the natural world surrounds him. The frame symbolises a memory being captured, much like a photo frame that holds your personal memories and moments.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Aaisha has really captured the way in which the young boy feels CONNECTED with his environment – when our natural environment suffers, it can be a blow to feeling a sense of Belonging to a place
February 18th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Hi from Lochlan – There is always an out group wherever you go in life because most of the time in life people will not like another group – and the person that isn’t like us will not belong as noone wants to hang round with them.
I see people being excluded when these things happen
*People are making fun of them
* People are not wanting to hang around them ever
* People are chosen last for a team
* Noone talks to them
* Exclusion from all social activities
“We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us” means that people see other people as Others. People aren’t seeing the “others” as equals – as they don’t like them and refer to the others as “them”.
Some images of Belonging in the book “Belonging” by Jeannie Baker are at the end of the story when the girl is getting married – she has found someone that she belongs with and she is marrying him.
An image of alienation shows the child that is living in the vacant lot across the street from the girl. He is lying in the lot by himself. This shows he is alone and has nowhere that he belongs.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Good day – it’s Jerome. Why is it that there is always an out group? They may not have a particular quality that others have, or there are certain traits one does not morally accept. I see groups or people being excluded through ignorance, mocking, sneering, pretending, taunts and hate acts.
People see other groups as Them because everyone puts themselves before anyone else and this tends to create a “dominant” vibe which makes them put forward any qualities/traits they possess as a necessity to fit in. When one fits in a group with many similarities and compares themselves to another group, they will tend to name themselves the “alpha” group because they are more familiar with themselves compared to the other group. In esence, Group Alpha is “Us” and will always consider Group B as “them” because we are unknown to them just as they are unknown to us and there are no feelings TOWARDS each group, only within.
I’ve chosen “Window” – some images of Belonging are shown throughout the book just as images of Not Belonging are present. Examples of Belonging include pages 1-2 where there are at least three scenes of Belonging.
1) The baby, cuddled up in his mother’s arm, feels safe and comfortable in the warm, trusting arms of his mother.
2) The mother herself, looks out into the outback smiling, where she feels she is home, she belongs here.
3) Also note, the ideology of Not Belonging is not restricted to humans. Belonging affects animals too as seen through the window where there are various species of wildlife going about their business in their homes – their place of Belonging.
4) Finally, note how all the life forms treat the area as home. Both the humans and animals belong in that area.
February 18th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Hallo from Brook – There is always an out group because not everyone fits in or belongs. They don’t WANT to be involved in the in group or aren’t ALLOWED in the group or just don’t want to. I see people exclude people from groups if they are different, or aren’t the same as them – like a disability, race, age, different thoughts – if they act different, look different etc.
“We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us.” This means that we think of ourselves as ourselves and just see other people as not themselves. One group looks to other groups as ‘them’ and that group thinks the same, meaning situations that happen are always portrayed differently.
I’ve chosen some images of Belonging and some of alienation from “Belonging”. A picture of the girl showing affection shows she belongs. Another picure has the girl on her 10th birthday with the flu amd she is stuck inside, alienated.
February 18th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Hallo, it’s Stephen here again. There is always an out group because the out group are people who are not like ‘us’. Groups extend a bond towards people who look and act like ‘us’. Excluded are people who we don’t want to be.
We are Them to Them, as They are Them to Us – This quote means that people THINK they know – for example, they see ‘them’ as WHAT they are and not as WHO they are. They tend to stereotype those who look and act different – as something they’re not. Yet those who are described as the out group think that the in group is “all that” and yet we have forgotten that we are all the same.
Images of Belonging from “Belonging” are where the mother is holding a baby in her arms which shows protection. Other points are things such as footy mates who come over to play at his house. Some images of alienation are when he moved to the bush because he didn’t feel comfortable in a city-like house and moved somewhere to a sanctuary.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
These thoughts are very interesting – I think that what some of you are getting at is that this is all a matter of POINT of VIEW – of PERSPECTIVES – that there is not one absolute view about people or the world. What we think and feel will be different according to our perspective.
BELONGING – how we gain it – will be a matter of perspective. If we see people as ‘Them’ all the time, we can LACK EMPATHY – the imagination to share how they would feel in different situations…
Of course, that is why books, movies, songs and computer games are so significant – because for a while we WALK IN SOMEONE ELSE’S SHOES.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
It’s Nicholas here – I think out groups exist because they don’t have the same interests as us. People with a disability, from certain religions or poor people are left out. I see the quote defines the difference between two different groups – as one group being ‘us’ which tells us that this group belongs with each other whereas the other group ‘them’ defines the other group as Not Belonging to the ‘us’ group.
I have chosen Window – it looks that the people feel alienated in the city.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Hallo from Kisuke – There is always an outgroup – this may be due to their interests and views are different to ours, making them less popular. Society is harsh in excluding certain types around issues such as the disabled, looks, intelligence, race and religion just to name a few. There are a whole lot of times where groups or people have been excluded – by ignorance, sneering, or just a lack of interest. They pick out stereotypical features, classifying them as the ‘out’ crowd.
This quote means we belong in our own territory whereas they belong to theirs. This is shown with us fitting in to certain groups, and not really sharing or caring with the ‘other’ groups.
Window explores the character’s memory of their place. There are a series of frames that articulate the detailed changes in his life, such as urbanisation. The clearing of the land underlines the impact of the growth of urban culture. As he grows up, the place starts to fade away, shown in the frames of the cracked wall. He then decides to move away with his new family, to a place like where his life began.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Kisuke
I think you have really stated very clearly the importance of LAND and the BUSH in Window – it is like a character – being stifled and destroyed by the coming of suburbs and the clearing of trees…
February 18th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Good day, it’s Nik. When there are multiple groups, they fight for superiority amongst other groups. One of these groups won’t be strong enough or have the same willpower as the others so it falls behind in the race.
One of the ways that people exclude others is that they are not allowed to be in a football team because of the person’s reputation as a “nerd” or “geek” at school. The quote means that people see other groups like this: everyone sees people other than themselves as “other”.
In Window by Jeannie Baker some images of Belonging are the mother and the baby in the mother’s arms and the baby as a grown up man with his baby in his arms. An image of alienation is when the boy is alone in the background making his cubby house.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
There is always an out group because of the way they appear to other people – in other words, they’re different to the rest. People are excluded for the way they act, dress or for their colour. For example, muslims are “apparently” known as terrorists which is not true. This is known as stereotyping.
The quote means that we look at the other group as ‘them’ and the other group looks at us as ‘them’.
Some images of Belonging in Window are where in most of the story Sam is also with his cat. They grow a strong bond. Some images of alienation in the book are when he is by himself making his cubby house while all the other kids are playing on the other side of the road.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Good day – it’s Ramendra, the flying Fijian. There is always an out group in a society or a community because they feel like they don’t belong and can’t take part in society/groups. This can happen because of one’s culture, religion, being homeless, poor or white/black.
This quote means that people see other groups as not ‘us’ – they are ‘them’ whereby the other group thinks the same about us. They are both different and don’t belong in the opposite group…
I’ve chosen “Window” as my text. Some images of Belonging are:
* the window and the environment
*the flora and fauna of the environment
* where they hug and kiss
*when they are together
Isolation:
* when she’s always alone in the picture
* that dark colour
February 20th, 2009 at 9:38 am
This text ‘Belonging’ by Jeannie Baker portrays in groups and out groups, such as the outside community in comparison to the family.
The ‘us group’ is the family and they are represented in the text by the girl’s (Tracey) window and her backyard. Throughtout the text the ‘us group’ develops over the period of 2 years for every new scene of the backyard and community behind e.g streets.
The idea of belonging is demonstrated by the expansion of the greenery into the wider community.
In our text ‘Eric’ from the picture book ‘Tales From Outer Suburbia’, the division of the “Us” and “Them” group was very obvious. This was represented in the text by the separation between the pictures and the written text. This highlights the barriers between the “Us” and “Them” groups and that we can’t just simply penetrate through. For example, the composer describes Eric as a normal human being however the pictures depict him as a mythical creature. In addition, the pictures are coloured black and white which also highlights the fact that there are two different perspectives present.
Our text “Reqium for a Beast” by Matt Ottley ia a depiction of Rural Australia and the social tensions that exist between European Australians and Indigenous Australians, commenting on the effects of colonisation and Stolen Generations. The Chapter “Mors Stupebit Et Natura” contains the speech of one indigenous woman talking about the effect of the Stolen Generation on her family, as the children who left the camps never found a sense of belonging withing their real family or within white society and they felt alienated. IN short they always were them and they never became us.
February 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
These ideas are interesting – people have identified a number of instances where Belonging and Not Belonging stem from the divide between Them and Us. I’ve enjoyed reading the ways that you have understood the quotation which you were asked to analyse this week. Some of these notions about point of view are explored more fully in next week’s blog task…
February 25th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Hello Rappers
It has been wonderful to read so many different, insightful comments on the ‘us’ and ‘them’ aspect of belonging and the way it is expressed in the texts. Your comments indicate the depth that can be discovered in these multimedia books. As I mentioned earlier, this rap point question is rather complex and it is gratifying to see how much thought you have put into responding to it. Keep up the great work on your area of study. CS
February 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am
We have chosen The Red Tree and the song lyrics Strange Fruit as additional texts and find that the fear of being rejected often motivates peoples’ isolation. The desire for power and control can bind some groups together to make outsiders of others. The sense of belonging based on connection to place is not something with which we are familiar as most of our group are not locals ‘born and bred’. We are attracted to the idea of that sort of connection though, as ‘displaced’ people often are.